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Reliably Well brings you thoughtful conversations from those who are shaping the future of healthcare, focusing not just on the technical side of the industry, but on the human element, the stories, the struggles and triumphs of individuals who are driving change. Join us for candid discussions that highlight both the challenges and rewards of working in a field where humanity and healthcare intersect.

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Luke West is the chief executive officer of Relias Healthcare, where he leads operations and drives to strategic growth across the organization. But to those who know him best, including us, he’s much more than a CEO. He’s a values driven leader and someone who brings humor, heart, and a relentless pursuit of excellence into every room he walks into. Prior to 2017, he held key leadership roles at North Mississippi Health Services in Tupelo.

thrilled to have him on our episode today. And, I said a lot of stuff about him from his bio, but, we would not be here today if he had not pushed me into, what we are doing today. And, on top of all that, he is a dear friend of mine, multi-talented, anything he wants to do, he can do, but this is probably the hardest thing for him to do. So thank you, Luke, for going into your.

discomfort zone in joining us on the podcast. Thank you, Dr. Johnsey, Dr. Abraham, two of my favorite people talking me into doing something that’s probably one of my least favorite things, which is to be public facing. So I appreciate this. Yeah. And we won’t make you sing yet. Luke has one of the best voices too. That’ll come later in the podcast, but Luke, tell us a little bit about your story. We want to hear about your personal and professional background before you were the CEO of Relias Healthcare. Yeah. So my story,

very multifaceted, so I’ll give you my story into healthcare. I grew up in the same area that Relysa’s headquartered in around the Tupelo area. And my mom was a labor and delivery nurse, a staff nurse that was at the bedside for 30 years of her career. And I just remember growing up, you know, there was a reason that she would miss an event, a birthday, Christmas here and there. And so I would correlate that with mom, you know, is doing really important work.

I was just proud of what she did. I was excited to be able to say that my mom worked at that hospital that we drove past. remember my dad would, on Sundays when she would be working, we’d go after church and get to go by. And walking into the hospital, I just thought it was the coolest thing that you’re, know, this place that’s open 24-7 and I have people that are taking care of other people. And so I just had always been very interested in healthcare, you know, even to the point where, you know, when Christmas, I think I asked for a

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an ambulance stretcher and my parents figured out how to do that. And I was a really quirky, quirky kid. But anyway, so I, as I grew up, started to see where would my skill set lie? You start to kind of think about a career coming from an entrepreneurial family. I liked the business aspect of stuff.

I wanted business cards in like the fifth grade, if that means anything. So I volunteered at the hospital at probably eight or ninth grade. They do a summer volunteer program where they place you with different clinicians in the hospital. And I’d requested to be in administration. They had never had had anybody want to do that as a kid. So they placed me with, with a, UAB resident, which ironically it’s the school that I ended up going to long-term. I placed me with a resident that summer.

followed him around and then I worked the front desk of the lobby of the office. I felt like the CEO there going into a budget meeting. I had no clue what these people were talking about, but it was one of those moments that I thought, you if my mom’s doing important work, then her bosses must be doing very important work. And so, yeah, I was just had this in my mind for a really long time of I want to do that type of meaningful work, but I…

I want to do it on the organizational side, on the business side. And so, so yeah, I went to college and even shadowed some while I was there. And it was a brief stint where I felt like ministry might be something that I wanted to do. But all along I knew that I kind of wanted to do healthcare. So it came time to graduate college and you know, it’s that time when you’re like, what’s next?

I told my dad, said, hey, my credit card expires in July. And he said, son, I planned that four years ago. And I knew at that point that I was doing something. what that ended up being was telling my parents I really want to do hospital administration. And my mom being the bedside staff nurse for forever was like, you don’t want to be an administrator. And she said, well, at least.

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at least figure, you know, go in the hospital and see what it’s like to work, see if it’s an environment that you want to work in and see just before you make that step, make sure it’s something you really want to do. Best advice that I’ve ever gotten because right after college, I applied for a unit secretary position at North Mississippi Health Services and went straight in and became a ER tech there and kind of cross-trained amongst those types of positions.

board coordinator, care coordinator, ER tech position. And I worked the night shift there with a lot of the clinicians that work at Relias now. I say it was the most fun job I ever had and that they paid me more than $11 an hour. I’d still be doing it to this day. I absolutely loved working nights in the emergency department, but I knew, you know, I knew walking in the door, what I was trying to do, which was prepare my resume to go back to do grad school because I wanted to be an administrator. And so I had this, you know,

this life of trying to understand everything we were doing as a tech and thinking, okay, if I was in charge, how would we do this differently? And so through just a lot of great relationships and timing, it just has so happened that I was able to get an administrative position through a company that’s very much like Relias at the time that managed the hospital contract in Tupelo. So I left my night shift one morning as a tech and walked back in the door in a suit about a couple of hours later as the site coordinator there.

lot of that is due to Dr. Johnsey. And that’s really, I remember that first day, like it was yesterday, that I walked in, Dr. Johnsey, I’m your psych coordinator. was also the tech that was getting that EKG about five minutes ago on your patient. And I’m sure there was a lot of skepticism. It like, we’re gonna see how this works. And it was just, I was in my element at that point, being able to support those clinicians and then being able to get on with Northmas Health Services. And they were great to me.

sent me back to grad school and being able to go to UAB and learn the industry from the best. was a domino effect that got me into healthcare. so, so that’s how I got here. I could probably tell that story in many different ways, but, yeah, I’m very fortunate that I was able to have that mom that was doing that bedside work that I was able to see and know that meaningful work was happening in that building. And that’s how I’m here today. Yeah. I think it’s always neat when we look back on our story with some, you know, some

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some distance down the road and see the path that we’ve traveled and how divergent it is from maybe the path we thought it would go down. But we see the one that we traveled, how much better it was than maybe the one in our head that was planned out for us. How much better the ultimate travel agent had for us in planning things out.

And, and also, you know, when, somebody new comes in, you’re always wonder how they’ll do something, but you, you attack things with, with purpose and diligence to really try and come up with the, the absolute, you know, best approach that you can. When we were starting to form our mission, vision, and values, we came up with our five passions that, that we would help to kind of put some detail in some.

wording to help people to understand, latch on to and identify what was there more, the substance that they could attach themselves onto or their work more directly to. so people, innovation, quality, value and excellence. And we’ve asked this question to all of our guests and so far all of our guests have identified people as that passion that they resonate most with.

You’re going to have a different answer for us. What is that passion that you resonate most with? Yeah. I think, you know, what’s crazy to me is you remember Dr. Johnson, we sat in the room, we cleared a whole day to come up with what these were. It took us a very, very short amount of time to come up with our mission, vision, passions. was very natural to us what we would end up being. And that last one.

was originally we’re like, it success? Is that a measure? What’s that word that we’re trying to look for in excellence was where we landed. And that’s what I would say is the word that resonates with me the most, because if you’re on my team, you know that the level of detail of the work that we’re doing is what I’m most passionate about. I think that we’re not going to be successful if we don’t treat our people right, if we don’t innovate, if we don’t have good quality work, if we’re not

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being good stewards of our money, think that that’s a given in the healthcare world that we’re in. But it’s that last inch when you’re doing work that people really, really notice. A lot of those, mean, I would say 80 % of the things that we do at Relias Everyday that make Relias Relias was that last inch in the formation of Relias that we were like, why don’t we take it a little further? Why don’t we do the book club? Why don’t we?

make our folks write handwritten notes and teach them the value of culture. And that level of detail, I think, is what people, when you walk out of a room, yeah, there’s a lot of people that do what we do, but they don’t do it the way that we do it. And what people see when we walk out of room, whether that’s an interaction with them, interaction with a patient, interaction with our team members, is that, that was very thoughtful. And I wouldn’t have thought about that last inch of this process. And that’s the…

The thing that I want our team members to think there’s, yeah, we can do good work all the time. I don’t want our team to do good work. I want us to team to do meaningful, intentional work, which to me is, is, is, is excellent. And I’ll, I’ll die on that Hill of, of you’ll hear me say we don’t litter at Relias. I don’t want our folks to just be doing B-level work and we’re not going to litter in any environment that we’re in. Yeah.

I’ll give a host confession here. If we decided to leave it at four passions, excellence would have been left off. And if it had been up to me, it would have been left off and we would have lost something very important. again, that’s Luke coming out in this and that has made a lot of difference. A lot of times it’s been the separator. And like he says, is vital many times. It is that.

that 10th yard that gets you the first down. Luke doesn’t understand what I’ve just said at all. A lot of people on the podcast will understand it, but it is that thing, that extra, the extra mile, the extra that goes a long, long way to making everything else fulfill its mission as well. again, if we had been frustrated, I would have given up on that one.

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we would lost a huge important part of our identity. Yeah. for those that don’t have the privilege to know Luke well, sports are not in his top 10 power rankings of hobbies. To make another sports analogy, it’s like, you know, the Notre Dame play like a champion today that they slap before they go out. I really want to get one of those like old Mississippi County road signs that says, don’t litter y’all and put it up in the corporate office. Everybody can slap it just to make Luke happy with his passion of excellence.

I’m going to go little bit rogue here because I have the opportunity to kind of work with both of you in different ways. And I’ve also observed that y’all have a very authentic friendship while also doing really high-pressured work together. One of you is an excellent clinician. One of you is an excellent CEO. Talk to me a little bit about y’all’s friendship and

kind of how that started and how it’s grown over time in the midst of almost celebrating 10 years of a company. Like just me as an outsider, I’m like, Luke and Joe are friends. And that’s very rare that like work hasn’t blown up your friendship. Yeah, Luke’s hilarious. I can easily answer that. think it’s just, you know, we’re the most unlikely duo. We’re in different seasons of our lives. He’s a clinician. I that was the

He was the medical director, was the tech at the time. And I think that it started by being both trying to be very good at the jobs that we were doing. So Dr. Johnsey being just a incredible clinician, earned my respect, you when I was working in the ED with him, I tried to not be a lazy tech. And so I think that, you know, from that environment, we both respected one another enough that when…

We started working together in an administrative capacity. Then you start to see people’s integrity. And I think that we were able, we were placed in situations many times where we both could have seen the other individual handle a situation. Probably, know, rightly so, but just not in a way that our character integrity would have allowed us to. And so I’ve seen Joe many a times take the road of, I’m going to allow my integrity to be what’s seen here.

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and not the obvious reaction of what would come out of anybody else in this situation. so, A, that’s a great mentorship for me to be able to sit and watch someone that day in and day out just leads with integrity. And then for us, I feel like there are many times we could have gotten ahead much quicker had we done what was either instinctive or just what was obvious. And we would both look at each other in those situations and it was…

It was an unspoken that we just weren’t going to handle a situation like that. So I think there’s, there’s some past values of, of, you know, aligning right there that we were just a lot of times during those early seasons, we were the only two people in the room that seemed to be thinking the same way of no, we’re not, we’re not going to do that. Or no, we’re going to treat this person this way. We’re going to handle this. We’re going to respond to this situation a completely different way. And then over time you’re in the boxhole so much together.

that it’s like with any situation, the only thing you can do is laugh. And then I think that humor has been a huge relief. If you’re around our office anytime, I think you hear that. I think that that’s our biggest measure of culture is are we laughing together? And I don’t laugh much more than anybody. It’s more laughing so you don’t cry, but we have done that for 10 years. And so you look up after that and you start to say, somebody that I’d really like to work with and someone that’s got…

similar values and somebody that’s funny and you look at me and you’re like, I think we may be best friends. That happens over a long period of time and it’s so unlikely. I think we’re also, unlike Dr. Abraham and Blake, we’re not big verbal processors. We can stay in our own lane and do our roles really, really well. Then when we’re in the room together, we can work really, really well together. It’s just been the biggest, for me, blessing, but also just

I think the best dynamic for Relias is just to have friends that are running this together that at the end of the day, yeah, I’m sure there’s a million times over the past several years where it could have been, you know, we could have handled situations a lot differently, but you’ve got two great colleagues and friends in the room together. So it’s been great. I think that story he was telling earlier about, you know, he leaves his tech job. He goes home and changes out of his scrubs and changes into a business suit.

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comes back in, you know, 45 minutes later and he’s in the office and, I worked the night shift and my usual thing was to then go into the office and do a little bit of a chart review and that sort of stuff. So I was in the office after the night shift and he had been the tech on the night shift. And then he walks back in in a suit and I’m like, what in the world are you? Nobody, nobody expects that guy to come in. You’re supposed to go to sleep and come back in on Tuesday, not on Monday. And,

And so it was like an instant, you know, earn respect on day one that you’re going to do that. And it’s just gone from there. Uh, you know, we get tried by fire a little bit with the, we joke all the time about we were taught how not to run a company. And so there’s a lot of humor from, from where we started in learning from other people’s examples of how not to do some things that, that have, that have, you know, kind of bonded welded that friendship together and.

And we both, you know, one day when everybody else is saying, Hey, I’m this, this is too crazy. I’m getting out of here. I’m leaving. You know, we both looked at one another and said, if you leave, let me know so I can leave with you. And we both kind of, you know, gave that, gave that a handshake and, and, and, and promise we weren’t leaving unless we were letting the other one know. And, and when you can go through those kinds of trials and, and, know that somebody’s got your back through whatever’s going on.

You feel confident than when the better times are going along. You’ve also got somebody who’s, who’s, who’s going to stay with you then. And yeah, for the past, you know, it’s more than a decade, but for that, that period of time outside of my family, I spent more time with Luke West than, anybody else on this planet. So yeah, it, certainly bonds you into, into best friends with that, that amount of time and experiences that you’ve, that you’ve done and the number of hospitals we have.

scene and hospital gift shops. it’s, it’s, it’s quite a, quite, quite a photo gallery we’ve, we’ve, we’ve accumulated. Well, it’s, cool for me to kind of have a lower level seat to watch y’all’s friendship. It’s really cool. And it’s, and it’s even more cool that it’s only grown because you get to work together. Luke, who, who do you, who would you say has been the greatest influence on your life or who’s somebody that you look back at that maybe you learned to leave?

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leave your job as a tech and 30 minutes later come back in a suit to keep working, like that type of work ethic. Who would you say has influenced you the most? That’s actually a difficult question for me to pinpoint and answer because there’s just been so many different seasons of life that I can point to different individuals who’ve impacted me. I look at it from a value standpoint. had incredible parents that they were…

obviously huge influences in my life. I look from a family business standpoint, my grandfather, my dad, brother, all owning their business. so having great influences of how to do that with integrity and just what it’s like to be not just a worker, but an owner, is, there’s a lot that goes with that. they’ve been great mentors. But even, I think from a faith perspective, there’s been my childhood youth music minister to individual that

Discipled me when I was in college were really prominent in my life there that I looked to I looked to the Secretary of the middle school miss Lisa Taylor that you know as you mentioned I’m not going and playing in the football football team I was the kid that like volunteered in the the office best office worker self-homodox ever seen I can tell you that but she was just awesome You know took me into shit and showed me like this is what this is how you interact with the public and this is this is how we keep it, you

Keep our files organized. mean, I can just think of so many different things of people that have influenced me. And I will also say, know, professionally as well, I’ve had some great leaders, but I’ve also learned people that have influenced me on the leader that I do not want to be. And I think that has been very powerful to me too, to look up and see people in my life that I say, look, you may be really great at this aspect of your job. And I want to admire that. And it’s influenced me that this is a part of your leadership that I don’t want to emulate.

And then honestly, I look back over previous versions of Luke and I say that that’s a version I don’t want to be or I do want to be as we, I feel, I say, you’ll hear me say a lot of times, Relias is kind of like dog ears one year and Relias is, I feel like seven years in real life. And so feel like we’ve lived a lot of lives and then previous to that too with college and everything. There’s things of course you get proud of as individuals. And then there’s things that you look back on and you’re saying, I don’t want to be that version of myself.

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anymore. And so thankfully through this, I’ve been able to look back and have just, it’s been very influential, just the people that have been placed in my path. And I can’t pinpoint a single individual, but I can pinpoint individuals during different seasons. And I’ll say the common denominator that people that gave up their gracious and their biggest asset, which was their time.

to influence me. Yeah, I think that it’s amazing always to me to see how you identify great people in your past and Relias has been so dependent upon those people that you saw along the way in your path that you identified as, they’re going to be something someday or they are somebody incredible that had an impact on you. And a lot of those people now work with us and they’re around.

incredible people here and incredible for us. think that’s one of the talents that’s not in your bio is this identifier of talent that I’m not sure exactly how to put that on as a skill on LinkedIn, but I will endorse you for that whenever they figure that one out. But as we go through thinking about looking forward in the environment, what’s the

biggest challenge that you see that you’re facing in the current environment that we’ve got or what’s the next thing on the horizon that keeps you up at night besides your 15 alarms that wake you up? I don’t think that, you know, it’s, again, it’s not one thing that I can pinpoint. I think as the scale of the organizations has grown, that has changed. It’s also the industry changes all of the time. And so I think that

I think one of the largest challenges, first off, you have to think, when we started this, we were much younger. I was in my 20s and so I’ve had to lean into other people from a leadership perspective because what worked as a leader of four people is very different from a leader of several hundred people. So just evolving leadership styles over and with the scale of percentage that we have as an organization, that changes fairly, you know.

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barely often. And so I think that’s less one thing that keeps you up. It’s one that you just kind of have to be adaptive as you go and understand that what worked yesterday doesn’t work tomorrow. And in the early days, we would all look around at each other and we could easily once a week be like, you good, you good. All right, we’re all good. Well, I know that there are individuals in our organization that I won’t interact with this week.

that’s just an added measure of pressure to make sure that we go that extra inch that we have. We are having our other team members emulate what we, you know, the standard that we would set. you know, it’s, that’s, that’s just, that’s just difficult with any, any company with, with scale. And so it’s this, this constant, what am I missing? What was I not missing yesterday that I’m missing today? And then also when, when you start this and in your

in your twenties, you, as I said this many times, I don’t, I don’t ever want to look up and be the leader that’s like, I wish somebody would have told him 10 years ago to stop saying the cinema meeting or the way that he does this rates, it’s, it’s, grates on everybody’s nerves. And so I think that takes a lot of introspection, a lot of humility. And that’s a challenge when you, when you look up and, know, you can be successful in a lot of ways. And then you hear, you have to be open to hear from the team. Hey, you think that you’re doing this really well, but you’re not. And so it’s just that constant.

being, I say, fat, flexible, adaptable, teachable, and I want to be a really fat guy by the end of this. I guess the answer to that is skill. And understanding, my biggest piece of this is understanding that not everyone gives the benefit of the doubt, even though you wish they would. And so we make decisions that I know now, when I make a decision, that somebody might be frustrated with that because…

I’m not going to sit around the table with them on Tuesday to be able to explain it because their clinician has stayed away that’s working a night shift. So it does make you have to double down when you’re making a decision to understand that you’re making it the right way, because not everybody’s going to give you that benefit of the doubt. And you need to be very certain where before felt like I was a little more like, will make this call and I’ll explain it on Tuesday to everybody that that season has gone now. Yeah, it’s just, it’s just, you know, that that’d be the difficult thing is just learning to be constantly adaptable. Yeah. And one of the

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ways that I feel like you’ve navigated that is with your humor. And I was thinking about, I was actually with both of y’all yesterday and I got out of the car and y’all went on your way and I went on my way and I was like, I to talk to Luke and Joe tomorrow. And there’s this great book that Terry Linbel wrote called Surprise by Laughter, which is the comic world of C.S. Lewis and

There’s this quote that makes me think of Luke and Joe, think you will agree that anytime you spend with Luke, he’s this, sometimes it feels like it’s a fictitious storyteller where you just start laughing and there’s like, so this is how CS Lewis’s brother describes CS Lewis and it makes me think of Luke. He was a man with an outstanding gift for laughter and the love of friends, a remarkable talent for, get ready, friendship of an uproarious kind.

And then he goes on to say that the two brothers talked about there’s no better sound than adult male laughter. So look, I think you’re one of the funniest people that I know too. And most of the time when you’re telling a story, don’t believe it. I don’t know if I’ve ever been so taken a compliment so well of being called fictitious. I will take that as a compliment. But I guarantee you, I promise this is what life happens to in a funny way. you’re not proud of being called fictitious, but

What is the accomplishment that you’re the most proud of? You’re very humble. You don’t talk about your accomplishments very much, which I think is a common thread that leaders have at RUIA. What achievement that you’ve accomplished means the most to you? Yeah, again, you look at different facets of individuals’ lives. I’m sure everybody has different achievements that trump the other, whether that’s a family, a faith, a professional. But obviously, this is a professional podcast, and so I’ll lean into that. I don’t consider

the Relias story, a Luke West professional success story. There was a lot of right places, right time. There was a lot of people that believed in us when we didn’t know what we were doing. And there was a lot of times that we were dressing for the job that we wanted, not the job that we had at the time. And so I think that there’s a lot of, a lot with Relias that I can’t take credit for, but I, what I do just when I hear the word success, I think of a lot of the moments.

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that I call my, I call like peach myself moments. And for me, that’s, you may have heard me say this, that’s when I walk by a room at our office and I see individuals that when I hired them, I had a vision of what they could do, you know, whether that’s okay, this person would be good at this and I’m going to give them the tools and train them to be able to do it. And I walked by and I see our team members meeting about something that I have no idea what they’re talking about and they’re doing it way better than I could have ever done. And I think, okay, we’ve done, we’ve done that right.

We’ve hired that right. Just like, you know, you hear people tell you stories of your kids and you’re like, okay, I must have done something right. I do the same with with Reliance. I was with you, Dr. A and Blake Jeter this week, me and Dr. Johnsey sitting on the sidelines watching y’all interact with individuals at a sister hospital talking about our future path in the services that we provide. And I guarantee you, Dr. Johnsey and I both sat there and thought, wow, they’re…

they’re leading this in a way that we didn’t prescribe them to do. And those are the peachy moments. And then on a random Tuesday afternoon, when we’re all sitting around laughing, I also have the peach myself moments when I’m like, I really enjoy the people that I work with. And we laugh together. And the fact that we get to be in the room with one another, that’s success to me. That’s a huge accomplishment because at the pressure of the work that we do.

the amount of patients that we see and we use the word fires, the amount of firefighting that we all do. It would be 100 % I think normal and okay for us to leave some of our meetings with our hair on fire and be very contentious. But I find that we leave more of our meetings laughing and enjoying the folks that were around than not. And I consider that a success. Yeah, you may not call it a loophole.

Wes success, but I think you have the lion’s share of the credit for the culture that was initiated and built here that that provides that where people are able to work very intensely, but not be so intense in their work that they can’t smile and laugh and enjoy it. You know, at the same time, you are an intense and excellent, an intense worker who wants work

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done excellently yet you exude, you know, this joyful spirit. Laughter is, is, you know, gonna go hand in hand along with the excellence. You’re gonna demand that of somebody and then you’re gonna tell a joke about, about that so that they understand the, the two very well. Again, you’ve assembled the talent team here to make that culture and excellence be driven to build a company, um, you know, of, uh,

What 500 clinicians serving hundreds of thousands of patients a year over a handful of states. Now multiple service lines. You do that own seemingly fatalistic minimal amounts of sleep based upon the email traffic that you, that you send out. So this podcast is about the humanity in healthcare. So there is a doubt as to whether the, are human or not. So.

We do ask this question to all of our guests, prove that you are human. So tell us that thing that is, you know, the real, the real, the, the non perfect side of you, the, you know, I geek out here. This is my, this is, I love the smell of fresh cut grass is one of our guests said, what’s the, what’s the loop quest? You shed a lot of moments with us, but what’s the, what’s the

the real human tester here for us. Yeah, I try to think of the stuff that I want people to think of and it’s maybe the stuff that they know. I do love to travel and I love to do this, but I don’t know how humanistic that makes me. So I’ll go the embarrassing route. The reason that you’re getting emails at 2 a.m. is not because I want to be a studious worker. It’s up. It’s because I’m watching Sister Wives on TLC. My weakness is a good, terrible reality TV show that I don’t have to think a thing about. I know all of

I know my thousand pound sisters really well. I know all my sister wives. I know all my duggars, all my roll off families. And so that’s incredibly embarrassing. Probably a lot of folks don’t know that about me, but I am human because I love to watch other humans living lives that I’m not. And so yeah, that’s me. I geek out by knowing what’s going on in all of these families, including the royal family, as you know. I like.

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pointless culture knowledge that’s not going to provide me any benefit in the day. And you think that I’m in that meeting trying to calculate the thing on the screen and I’m thinking about, you know, what’s happening on the episode of Sister Wives on Monday night. And that’s why I’m up at 2 a.m. It’s rewatching it after I finish my day. And I hope this finds its way out of the podcast because we’re over time. I am human. And so are all of our other friends in reality TV. That’s right.

Well, Luke, it’s, I can confidently speak for Joe for this, but we’re thankful that you’re our leader. And I’m also thankful that I get to laugh and so I cry on a regular basis with the street that you tell. And I think one of the things that makes bias really special is the Luke and John’s friendship that I would say is a friendship of an glorious kind. It’s not fictitious Abraham.

It’s the real deal. I think that the stories are fictitious because of how ludicrous they sound. I’m like, no, this really, this really did not know how to embellish a good story. We can have a teaching our teachers on that.

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