Season 3 Episode 10: Beyond the Forum: Our Relias Clinician Leaders on the Mission of Support at the Heart of Relias

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Reliably Well brings you thoughtful conversations from those who are shaping the future of healthcare, focusing not just on the technical side of the industry, but on the human element, the stories, the struggles, and triumphs of individuals who are driving change. Join us for candid discussions that highlight both the challenges and rewards of working in a field where humanity and healthcare intersect.

Welcome back to Reliably Well Podcast. this episode is gonna be a little bit different. Our hosts, Dr. Abraham and Dr. Johnzi, are back in the hot seat, but this time not so much about their own story, but the story of our leadership forum, which is our annual conference for our clinician leaders, our corporate team to come together, have a chance to hear about the resources that Relias offers, engage in conversation and collaboration.

and this year’s leadership forum really sparked kind of this idea that I felt like was really important for our podcast listeners to hear about all the great resources that Relias offers our clinicians. I think oftentimes some of the best feedback we get about leadership forum is that.

Man, I wish that all of our clinicians knew how hard Relias works to care for our people, but also equip our people with resources. So today’s episode is a little bit more about the story of Leadership Forum, more so than the story of a specific clinician. And so I’ve got Dr. John Z and Dr. Abraham kind of back in the hot seat to tell us kind of what their takeaways from this leadership forum were and how we can apply it to.

every clinician in Relias and it not just be something that we experience for two days in a conference, but that it really permeates the the average shift that each of our clinician works, but also the burden that they carry working in healthcare. So Dr. Johnzi, Dr. Abraham, I’m gonna kind of start with a question that really just kind of generalizes more about what you experienced a few weeks ago at Leadership Forum.

What in your mind do you want most of our clinicians or what do you want most for our clinicians to know about the the people and the resources that support them at Relias? Well, Lebo, I think I think first off, I want our clinicians to know that when we say that we put the clinician first in the equation, that’s you know, to to borrow

Tom Mayer’s words, it’s not words on the wall. It’s the noise in the hall that’s really happening there. And and and that’s intentional, that’s purposeful, f looking at negative experiences that I I’ve had as a clinician that I know others have had in kind of coming into an organization and not really feeling like you’re part of it, not really feeling like there’s something there for you other than a J O B. And

We know that some people just want to engage at that level. And so we’re not forcing this upon them, but we do want you to know we’re we’re thinking about you and we’re trying to take those burdens away from you, those things that are noise that that bother you from focusing on the task at hand, which is taking care of that person, that individual, that human being in front of you and giving them as much of yourself as you can so that the interaction

gets to the ultimate goal, which is making them better in whatever way that that that works out. So so we bring people onto the organization that that maybe other people don’t to try and help to lessen that level of noise, to try and help the individual know that I don’t have to worry about the other stuff that goes on, you know, arguing with the insurance company about this or that.

you know, is my pay gonna be the right way or not? is my schedule gonna be what I want it to be? I I’ve got to re-credential at this place and I I don’t know where that card is from ACLS s six months ago that I took or all of those things. We wanna we wanna filter out as much of that noise as we can. So I I will say what what I sort of took away from that is

We can do a better job of communicating that story and the resources and the opportunities to our frontline clinicians because as as we do more and more of this engagement with our leaders, we’re understanding the disconnect between their understanding of what’s here and what our understanding that they should know or we think that they would know about what’s here. And so we we’ve got to be more and more proactive.

And I think the other thing that I would say to our frontline clinicians about the roles and the individuals that are here is that they’re inspired in their job. They’re not just a payroll clerk. They’re not just an education, you know, director. They’re they’re part of this much bigger and much more important organization because they’re dealing with clinicians.

who take care of people in the having the worst days of their life. And that makes the job that they do on this back screen side, this this back office side, that makes it much more important for them individually when they see themselves as helping that clinician to carry out their work. So they want to be involved. They they they it it’s not a burden on them when the clinician engages them.

it is fulfilling that purpose for them. so I I I think that those are big global things I’d like to make sure that the that the frontline clinician knows about what’s in the back office. And then I’ll let Sumner give his thoughts. Yeah, I I always leave leadership forum really grateful. There’s a lot of work that goes into it and there’s there’s

A lot of conversations and planning and details that a lot of really talented people think about before that time together. I’m always struck by how much our corporate team truly cares, like cares about the clinician, and then how much our medical leaders really care about their people.

And they really, they really want it to be better. And and I think you see that with it is a forum where you’re free to tell the truth about how hard things are and some good successes and how some things are going well. And you really kind of feel like you’re getting some traction on some things. I just am struck by the care that our leaders have and that our corporate team has. And

I don’t think that care means you do everything perfectly right the first time you do it. I think it means that you have intention and you have passion and you have some degree of empathy where sure the corporate office doesn’t know what it’s like at two o’clock in the morning in Pickyune, Mississippi, because they’re not doing the job, but they do want to know about it. And the medical directors that are there are relaying that.

That happens every Tuesday in our corporate office. We’re trying to hear from the front line. It happens in a more in-depth way, during the leadership forum. But I always leave and I’m just like, you know, like no organization’s perfect, but gosh, like our people care. And that is a that’s a really good mooring or buoy or something for us to anchor to that that really no matter what and and

We learned from a lot of experts about all the challenges that are going on in healthcare, particularly in our geographies and in our specialties. And we told the truth about that and how we’re gonna navigate it. But we also got to hear fun stories about who people are as a mom or a dad or a brother or an adult child, or and people have had stuff going on in their lives. And you had people that were there for the first time, and then you’ve had people that have been

at every leadership forum since Relias’s inception. And it even if you’ve been to one, it’s it’s like if you you know, Joe likes to say, if you’ve been to one E D, you’ve been to one E D. If you’ve been to one leadership forum, you’ve been to one leadership forum, you know? and so I think it’s really fun that it in some ways it feels kind of like a family reunion. I didn’t go up gr going to family reunions, so that could be off base, but you know, you kind of get together with you know you’re gonna see some people at leadership forum that you hadn’t been in the room with in a while. And

I always leave feel encouraged. Yeah, I love that. You know, you you talk about two things stand out to me. The the idea of care and empathy. And, you know, as a member of the corporate team who is not a clinician, I think that is one of the things that we always are are keenly aware that we can support and we want to support, but at the end of the day, we don’t always know exactly what it’s like to be a clinician. And so how can we

you know, enhance the experience of our corporate team to better understand our clinicians. I think leadership form as an opportunity for that. and you mentioning the experts in the room talking about telling the truth about really difficult scenarios and situations that our clinicians face. you know, one of the big takeaways for me was Dr. Gita Penza and her just really eye-opening

Conversation and collaboration with our clinicians in the room about litigation. we’re gonna link a lot of her resources from a podcast perspective, from her documentary. we showed the documentary, A World of Hurt, to our corporate team. and I probably got more positive feedback on the fact that it was the hardest thing that they’d ever watched, but it was incredibly important for them to know what it’s.

to better understand what it’s like to be a clinician facing litigation. And so I think that that was a big takeaway for a lot of us is that the conversation around litigation is crucial and is not necessarily to Dr. Johnzi’s point, always being communicated the support resources that we have available. so I I would love to hear from y’all what you know, with Dr. Pence’s conversation and workshop, what do you want our clinicians?

you know, particularly when litigation is at stake, what do you want our clinicians, the frontline people to know about litigation and the resources Relias has? Yeah, I I think that, you know, the the big thing to that I will always encircle that negative topic with is the framework that that Dr. Pinsa laid out. It, you know, she got into it on our on our podcast.

episode, but the fact is that medical malpractice litigation is not an official sighting of you on your ability, your intelligence, your care or compassion. It is math. We work in environments with s with very ill individuals. And sometimes they have a bad outcome. And sometimes that bad outcome leads to the L word.

as we say, to to to litigation and all of the challenges that it brings upon it. But understand that we have great partners that we work with from a malpractice team, from the the attorneys that that we have. We’re engaged and we’re with you as as much as you want us to be and we’d love to be more than we are now with anybody

who has to go down that path. Because it is challenging, even when you understand the reality of it. You’re going to read some things and see some things that are going to be the way the the litigation system’s set up, it’s not a an enjoyable experience. And we all know it and we all fear it. But we wanna know we want you to know that you’re not walking along. And I I think that again in that theme of doing a greater job

Of making sure that everyone understands that. I was struck with the questions that our leaders were asking. Very, very good, very foundational questions. And so that’s what’s inspired us and we are working on right now to make sure we can get as much of that information, because I think information, when it’s some dark, fearful thing, whether it’s a medical diagnosis or whether it’s a litig a malpractice claim that you’re faced with.

the more information you can get, the more understanding you can have of where this road goes and what turns it has and what are the waypoints along the way, the better you begin to feel about being able to handle it and take on the challenges that it’s going to face you with. So so that’s our that’s what the biggest thing I took away from leadership form as the the challenge we have is let’s make sure and get this

these resources and this understanding of what the roadmap is to all of our clinicians as clearly as we can. Most of them are never going to walk down this path or or, you know, they’re they’re not going to have this this big of a challenge. But the ones that are, I want the first time that they feel it to already have an understanding and a capacity that this is that this is surmountable. This is

a blip on the radar. This is not a defining event. Yeah. And it’s like the old C.S. Lewis quote where like you really find a friend when somebody says, me too, right? And how when there is some type of litigation or medical malpractice involvement, a lot of that is is just a math problem. Like it it’s just inevitable with our culture and society. And the purpose of this podcast is not to talk about

the the what’s going on in our culture around that. But that at some point if you take care of enough patients, you’re probably going to be named in some type of suit. And that there is this shame, this character indictment, I’m not good enough. I cannot believe that that would have happened to me. Sometimes you do everything right with great intention and great care.

And there is an unexpected, unfortunate outcome, and your name’s on the chart. And so you get kind of drug into it. And some of that’s just a math problem. But I I think that learning how to talk about it with the through the appropriate channels in the appropriate way can really bring some freedom because you start to realize that the longer you go on in your practice, there’s a lot of other people that have been in that boat with you.

And I think that that’s while it is just a math problem, that math compounds. And as we’ve gotten bigger, all of a sudden you have this there’s a cohort of people all over the country, not just in our organization, that have all been through this. And what might it look like if we learned how through the proper channel in the proper way to talk about this more to where you don’t feel alone and the you know, the scarlet L is not on your white coat, right? It’s more of

I’m gonna show up to work every day with great intention and great care. I wanna help the people and humans in front of me. And you’re in a risky business, you know, where things don’t go right, things don’t go by the textbook. They rarely do. And so how do we learn how to talk about that as a community? And I think that Dr. Penza kind of cracked the egg, if you will, of like, we could like.

make some really good scrambled eggs out of this, you know, like we could create this community of people where it’s safe to talk about this. And you’re not alone. You’re not a bad person. You’re not evil. You’re not what all the things in the deposition or in the courtroom says about you. But we still care about you and we still believe in you. You know? And it was it I just kind of sat back and just kind of it there was like this collective

sigh of relief in the room once she started talking. Of like, like this is really scary, but it’s not as, it’s not as bad as I thought it was. And it’s way more common than I thought it was. And like, there are all all these resources. And then everybody kind of starts talking about it. And then the conversations after the talk, I think were really encouraging. So I thought it was a great call by the two of you or Dr. John C, I forget who kind of

led her to the forum, but the stars aligned for her to be there and I’m excited about what’s gonna grow out of it for her her organization. Yeah, you know, the word that stuck out to me is when you were talking was freedom. And I think our clinicians feel a lot of pressure and isolation and especially when litigation comes up that there’s this shame that they don’t feel like they have anywhere or place to go to to openly

And in your to your point, and properly talk and communicate about something that is inevitable and essentially could be just a math problem. and that brings brings me to an important point because I think one of the things that Dr. Penza kind of sparked in all of us is this proactive approach. How do we get in front of conversations like this? that’s our hope of really even doing this podcast is that we can send this episode to our people and say,

Look, we we have resources, we’re available, we want to support you. We don’t want to just isolate support to the two-day leadership forum. and so in in kind of thinking through this proactive approach, I think one of the ways that Relias has really worked to do that is through the office of the CMO and building out support resources to be proactive. And certainly we will be there in crisis and in response. but to Dr. Pence’s re point.

It’s not just the breaking point where people need help. It’s really the proactive approach before the breaking point. so I’m curious from y’all’s perspective, if I’m a Reliance clinician listening this, what can I actually gain from the office of the CMO? what is kind of the the idea vision behind it, but also the support resources that are available to me as a clinician? I think bringing anything.

You we might we may redirect your payroll questions or your budgeting questions somewhere else, but bring anything. We want the office of the CMO to be sort of the conduit for the clinicians, especially in that time where, hey, I’m not sure who handles this there. You probably won’t know, you know, Michael and Terry and and and and other individuals like that, but we can help direct that if it needs to go to somebody else. But

I’d say the other thing is, this is we’re we’re we’re building this ship out as we’re sailing on it. So it’s not a it’s not a complete fixed entity. because we understand as we learn more from you, well, you know, we really need a little bit more of this or we really need a little bit more of that. You know, the the idea of our education portion of the office of the CMO has certainly evolved. It was something that came out of our fellowship program.

And we’ve seen more and more how it’s applicable to the clinicians out in the field. And so if there is this skill or this task or this certification, now we’ve evolved into providing those things as well. We want to know what it what it is that where we can fill that void. but certainly as Sumner and myself, as we talk about this is a

a noise point for us, we’re going to expand it. That’s where the MSO offices come from. If I can just docusign applications for the rest of my career, my career’s going to be two, three years longer. because one day I was going to just throw those papers up in the air and say, never again will I feel those out in triplicate as we have to. And so that that’s the the thing that we want to know. What is that frustration point? What is that thing that

that keeps you from having joy in the job that you chose to do in the career that you spent so much time in. what what can we do to take those things that are just such a nuisance to you away? And and how are the ways we can enhance your career give you more education, more exposure to this, this topic or that? That’s what’s driving us. It’s not an edict from up above.

It is a desire to feel the needs of our clinicians. Yeah. And just kind of a it it hopefully is the the central hub that if you are a clinician and you have a question about anything that is going on in your practice, there’s one place for you to go. You don’t have to worry about who’s that person I talked to about my ACLS that I’ve forgotten and gosh, I I really want to change my

Just had another child. I need to change my benefits allocation. I can’t remember that woman’s name that helps me with all the HR and benefits stuff. Or hey, I kind of have this concern. Like I’m seeing these you know, there’s a better way for us to deal with atypical chest pain in my department. And, you know, we’re having a little bit of a problem with our hospital medicine keeps getting dinged on these sepsis fallouts because of our documentation.

Instead of having to figure out of all the people in the corporate office, who do I go to for that help, you go straight to that office as this kind of hub. We know how to filter everything to you. And I think it’s also to eliminate layers of bureaucracy. Like, I mean, I’m I’m still stunned that at this you know, I don’t want to compare and contrast to other organizations because that’s not fair because I’m not in them. But to have the Dr. John C as

Employee number one, founder, chief medical officer, still involved in the day-to-day of everybody’s work, not down in every single nitty weed of the, you know, 700,000 patients we’re going to care for every year, but being able to very quickly dive in and be helpful, that’s the purpose of this, right? Is to, is to how do you not have all these layers and who do I talk to about what? But no matter where you work.

No matter what discipline you’re in, if you’ve got a question about your practice or about anything to do with your employment, you can come to one spot and very efficiently get an answer that should have your best interest in mind. You know, I love to hear that because I think you know, I’ve learned over time talking with clinicians that oftentimes healthcare can make it really easy to put your head down, work your shift and

Carry a lot by yourself and kind of move on with your day and find yourself kind of in this vicious cycle. I think another message that came out of leadership forum was just the quite literal gift of collaboration that comes from this sense of connection, collaborating not only at the local level, but things like the OCMO allow it collaboration with the corporate teams and the individual clinician. I’m curious from y’all’s perspective, how do we continue to kind of build that?

culture of collaboration for our clinicians to not feel like we’re just expecting them to collaborate, but that we we actually work with them on a daily basis. Yeah, I I think that we try and be proactive in that we try to develop events in our sites where we can have those clinic collisions that are not simply clinically or work in involved. And I

certainly if you want to get to know somebody more as a human being, you know, seeing them when they’re, you know, trying to learn how to play pickleball or something else that they’re that’s out of their professional elements, a great way to to understand that we all are human beings. And I think it helps to generate those conversations about, remember when we went and did that habitat for humanity thing that flashed up on my

memories on Facebook the other day of being seven years ago when when your predecessor in the role, Libbo, took us to to work on a habitat house. That those things are they certainly put us in a different light and they help us to talk about other things than did you hear about that patient in room twelve, you know, or I’ve got this really difficult interaction that I just had with a family.

It’s it’s much better to be laughing about how I don’t know how to drive a nail into siding over here. But you know, I can I can put a chest a tube into your chest if I need to. I think that those help us and when we can see again that as Sumner’s slogan, we we all have belly buttons there. Let’s let’s make t shirts of that at some point in time. But you know, when we can see that about one another, it helps to to again put us on this level of

Well, that’s somebody I can talk to about this non-clinical stuff that I’ve got going on. And that’s what builds our relationships. It’s really easy, I think, for clinical leaders, for leaders of all sorts, they have to distance themselves sometime to be able to lead. And so I think it’s a great opportunity to get engaged again with that that local leader as something other than your boss, but as your friend. we can have those.

different relationships and different spheres. And so, you know, hopefully you’re not working when we’re doing one of those things. And if you are, catch it, you know, make sure the next one your your boss lets you off are, but jump onto those those times when we try intentionally to meet outside the four walls of the hospital. Yeah. And if it is true that there’s nothing new under the sun, we just see things from a different perspective or a different kind of how the light hits it.

I really do believe that this benefit of collaboration is maybe you’re in West Point, Mississippi, and you’re talking to somebody who’s in Nackadish, Louisiana, and you’re like, I had that problem a couple of years ago. And this is what I did to solve it. And then they’re like, well, I have this problem now. And they’re like, we have the same problem now too. It’s this idea that while healthcare is ever evolving and ever changing, you still run up against the same problem.

They may present themselves in a little bit of a different way, but determining how to execute those, it’s it’s much better received coming from a colleague who’s kind of been in the same situation, maybe just a little bit different, maybe some different characters involved. but you’re still trying to solve the same problem. How do we take better care of people with the resources we have in the place where we are?

And so I think that it’s just there’s something really fun with that too. And and I think the other thing with any type of collaboration, whether it’s pickleball or getting out and volunteering together or talking about a clinical problem, this idea that you create a safe place for people to say they don’t have all the answers. I like I think that’s what we’re trying to say is that often it’s like, ooh, I’m gonna come to this leadership forum and I’m going to figure out exactly

How to flow this department and my readmission rate’s going to be zero percent and I’m gonna be the best documenter that the world has ever seen. It’s like, no, no, no, no. Like nobody has all the answers. Cause if they did, then everybody would be doing them, right? And this would be really easy. But the work is hard. And what makes it hard is that there’s you’re dealing with people and you’re dealing with limited resources. And and so just creating a safe place for people to be like, I really don’t know how to solve this. And for somebody to be like,

Yeah, I don’t either. But this is what we tried last time. And this is where it was successful. And this is where we kind of wound up hitting the wall at some point. I think that’s what we’re trying to do, is like we want you to raise your hand. We or I raise my hand all the time. Like, I I don’t really know how to solve this, but we’re gonna we’re gonna create an environment and cultivate an environment where thriving is not necessarily being perfect, but it’s

being able for you and your team to do your best with the resources you have at the time that you’re making the decision. And then we’re gonna work together to figure it out. I just like this whole we’re we’re gonna we’re we’re trying to dispel this idea that there is there is this secret key that’s gonna unlock all the greatest successes. It’s like I I don’t know that anybody’s gonna find that. But we can have one plus one equal three instead of two if we’re actually working together and

Had the courage and vulnerability to say, I hadn’t figured this out yet. Yeah, I think that’s the key there, Sumner, where it’s the we are, we are much better. I I say it all the time with the collaborative relationship with the APCs, four eyes are better than two. And I think that that’s the the big thing about that idea of collaboration is as we work together in our in our local practice and beyond our local practice, when when our and HM

or or are truly collaborating together to make it more seamless and give feedback both sides, we get better. when when the team from Tupelo and the team from Nacadish can collaborate and figure out how to solve problems together, we don’t become a group of, you know, ten or fifteen, we become a group of thirty. And so we have more and more ideas and more and more experience that we can pour into that solutioning.

than simply it’s the best thing I could come up with. You know, I’m not gonna see all the issues that are out there, but the more that we’re we’re able to interact on those things. And when when bad times come, it’s a great time to have a group around you that understands true peers that understand what that means and what you are going through as opposed to I’ll just white knuckle it and tough it out myself. It’s a bad place to be.

Yeah, and just like this the this whole idea of not feeling alone. You know, I mean just like the the old colloquial phrase that I that just drives me crazy, but sometimes we all feel it, is that leadership is lonely. And it’s like it doesn’t have to be though. You know? Like to be a medical director in your environment, yeah, you’re gonna feel lonely. You’re gonna feel isolated, you’re gonna feel like, my gosh, I’ve got to come up with an answer here. But there is no good answer.

You know, because you would have already come up with it. But to know that you’re not alone, that there’s other people that can be shoulder to shoulder with you and we’re just gonna keep walking. And that sometimes the only way is through. And that there’s that this kind of patience is we can all tolerate patience when we know that somebody’s with us through it. Yeah, you know, I I hear so much

Authenticity and just the the heart behind both collaboration and connection. And I can’t help but give a semi-shameless plug for the podcast itself. You know, anytime I’m having a conversation with someone about the podcast, I’m really quick to make sure they know this is not a side hustle. We don’t have advertisements, we aren’t trying to go viral, we’re not trying to be on any top 10 list. We truly are trying to connect our people with other people that are in the same boat with them.

to hear the stories, to feel less alone, to be able to hear Dr. Crawford’s story and an incredibly accomplished medical leader and say he’s also a father and a grandfather and loves to do the changing at football games, that there is this sense that you know, w our culture talks a lot about wellness and can feel really prescriptive, but ultimately it’s about connection and feeling less alone and feeling like

I have resources to go to, but I also have this podcast to listen to to remind myself of the truth that nobody really has it all figured out. and so that’s kind of our our hope with this podcast. and yes, I probably will send this to people who say, I’m not so sure I want to be a guest. That’s not really my thing. because it really is ultimately a conversation about who you are as as a person and ultimately you know, what you can offer us both.

you know, clinically, but also really more just to Dr. Abraham’s point, as a human, we all have belly buttons, we all have failures and things that we’re not proud of. and that actually kind of levels the playing field a lot of times. So as we wrap up, I would be curious for for y’all to kind of just give us either a highlight of leadership forum, something that, you know, stuck out that maybe wasn’t necessarily a part of a session or maybe it was a conversation that you had.

in the two day conference that y that you want everyone to know for the re the three hundred and sixty four days of clinical leadership before we step into twenty twenty seven leadership forum. That that one’s a tough one for me. I don’t know what to say there other than just know that this operation’s going on all the time. It’s not again, we we have this one event that’s really there to encourage and and to

to uplift and to educate our leaders. But, you know, this is not it’s done stop. the people don’t then go off and and and do payroll. they’re still here for our frontline folks and and we we want that engagement, we want that opportunity to to build out and do more. And we need the feedback from our frontline folks. What’s what is meeting the the needs and what’s not. I I think that’s

you know, what what I want folks to know about the the office of the CMO, about the our efforts to engage with our clinicians and our our leaders is that it’s not a once a year goal that we have. It’s three sixty five goal. Yeah, I I would say that and this is probably I I could be turning a personal reflection into a public issue. You said this may not be the forum for it, pun intended, but the

Medicine’s a practice. Like, and I and it could be that we’re in the midst of football season as we’re recording this episode, and so I have my sports analogies and metaphors at the front of mind. But like practice is hard and it’s often not glamorous, but there are things that you can pick up and

learn and try to iterate on and be like, ooh, maybe maybe we should do this in the game, right? Maybe we should do this again tomorrow. Maybe we’ve kind of found something. So I would just encourage anyone that is a clinician that like we want to hear your questions. We want to hear your ideas. A lot of you have really good questions and really good ideas that we haven’t thought about and we want to hear them. And it’s this

This work is hard. The challenges are real. You’re not alone. We want to talk to you. We want to hear what it feels like to be you. We want to understand what your story is. But we also really value your insights as to how you might build a better mousetrap for this problem. Or there’s a different way to consider this from a different perspective where

You came from a different organization or a different state or a different health system and you did it this way. Like, we want to hear that. We’re always trying to get better and we’re we’re gonna be a lot better as people and as an organization when we hear your questions, ideas, comments, as opposed to just keeping those on the inside, right? and so I think that that’s certainly what the leadership forum two-day event in Tupelo is all about is this.

You know, we’re gonna collaborate, we’re gonna listen. We have two ears and one mouth for a reason, but you’ve got to talk to us for us to listen, right? we can’t help you if we don’t know what you need. And so it really is an invitation to call, reach out, email, text, send a carrier pigeon. We wanna know what you what you’re feeling, what you’re seeing, what you’re hearing, because you have you have a lot of good

ideas and you probably have answers that we don’t have. And so please, please reach out. We’re not hard to find. Yeah, I think that’s probably the piece that I really hope people take away from this conversation is that leadership form is great. And you know, it’s a two day event that happens once a year, but the support exists all year long. And not just for our clinical leaders, but for every single frontline c clinician. ultimately

All of our work in the corporate team, all of our work that we do points back to our clinicians and helping cultivate environments where they thrive, knowing that there’s a lot of things that we can’t control, but there are certainly ways in which we can offer support and resources. And to Dr. Abraham’s point, we don’t know what we don’t know. And so hopefully this is an invitation for you to reach out, to ask questions, to

really utilize the resources that we have currently in place and that we hope to have in place in the future. And so I appreciate y’all’s conversation around leadership forum, telling the story of Relias and Leadership Forum, but ultimately telling the story of what we hope that they see, that we d deeply care about them as people and first and then also as clinicians on the front lines. So thank you both for this wonderful conversation.

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